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The Children of Pornhub (NYTimes.com, Nicholas Kristof)

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The Children of Pornhub (NYTimes.com, Nicholas Kristof)

Nový příspěvek od Marco Freeman »


This article contains descriptions of sexual assault.

Pornhub prides itself on being the cheery, winking face of naughty, the website that buys a billboard in Times Square and provides snow plows to clear Boston streets. It donates to organizations fighting for racial equality and offers steamy content free to get people through Covid-19 shutdowns.

That supposedly “wholesome Pornhub” attracts 3.5 billion visits a month, more than Netflix, Yahoo or Amazon. Pornhub rakes in money from almost three billion ad impressions a day. One ranking lists Pornhub as the 10th-most-visited website in the world.

Yet there’s another side of the company: Its site is infested with rape videos. It monetizes child rapes, revenge pornography, spy cam videos of women showering, racist and misogynist content, and footage of women being asphyxiated in plastic bags. A search for “girls under18” (no space) or “14yo” leads in each case to more than 100,000 videos. Most aren’t of children being assaulted, but too many are.

After a 15-year-old girl went missing in Florida, her mother found her on Pornhub — in 58 sex videos. Sexual assaults on a 14-year-old California girl were posted on Pornhub and were reported to the authorities not by the company but by a classmate who saw the videos. In each case, offenders were arrested for the assaults, but Pornhub escaped responsibility for sharing the videos and profiting from them.


Pornhub is like YouTube in that it allows members of the public to post their own videos. A great majority of the 6.8 million new videos posted on the site each year probably involve consenting adults, but many depict child abuse and nonconsensual violence. Because it’s impossible to be sure whether a youth in a video is 14 or 18, neither Pornhub nor anyone else has a clear idea of how much content is illegal.

Unlike YouTube, Pornhub allows these videos to be downloaded directly from its website. So even if a rape video is removed at the request of the authorities, it may already be too late: The video lives on as it is shared with others or uploaded again and again.[/color]

“Pornhub became my trafficker,” a woman named Cali told me. She says she was adopted in the United States from China and then trafficked by her adoptive family and forced to appear in pornographic videos beginning when she was 9. Some videos of her being abused ended up on Pornhub and regularly reappear there, she said.

“I’m still getting sold, even though I’m five years out of that life,” Cali said. Now 23, she is studying in a university and hoping to become a lawyer — but those old videos hang over her.

“I may never be able to get away from this,” she said. “I may be 40 with eight kids, and people are still masturbating to my photos.”

“You type ‘Young Asian’ and you can probably find me,” she added.


Actually, maybe not. Pornhub recently was offering 26,000 videos in response to that search. That doesn’t count videos that show up under “related searches” that Pornhub suggests, including “young tiny teen,” “extra small petite teen,” “tiny Asian teen” or just “young girl.” Nor does it necessarily count videos on a Pornhub channel called “exploited teen Asia.”

The issue is not pornography but rape. Let’s agree that promoting assaults on children or on anyone without consent is unconscionable. The problem with Bill Cosby or Harvey Weinstein or Jeffrey Epstein was not the sex but the lack of consent — and so it is with Pornhub.

I came across many videos on Pornhub that were recordings of assaults on unconscious women and girls. The rapists would open the eyelids of the victims and touch their eyeballs to show that they were nonresponsive.

Pornhub profited this fall from a video of a naked woman being tortured by a gang of men in China. It is monetizing video compilations with titles like “Screaming Teen,” “Degraded Teen” and “Extreme Choking.” Look at a choking video and it may suggest also searching for “She Can’t Breathe.”

It should be possible to be sex positive and Pornhub negative.

Pornhub declined to make executives available on the record, but it provided a statement. “Pornhub is unequivocally committed to combating child sexual abuse material, and has instituted a comprehensive, industry-leading trust and safety policy to identify and eradicate illegal material from our community,” it said. Pornhub added that any assertion that the company allows child videos on the site “is irresponsible and flagrantly untrue.”


II.

At 14, Serena K. Fleites was an A student in Bakersfield, Calif., who had never made out with a boy. But in the eighth grade she developed a crush on a boy a year older, and he asked her to take a naked video of herself. She sent it to him, and this changed her life.

He asked for another, then another; she was nervous but flattered. “That’s when I started getting strange looks in school,” she remembered. He had shared the videos with other boys, and someone posted them on Pornhub.

Fleites’s world imploded. It’s tough enough to be 14 without having your classmates entertain themselves by looking at you naked, and then mocking you as a slut. “People were texting me, if I didn’t send them a video, they were going to send them to my mom,” she said.

The boy was suspended, but Fleites began skipping class because she couldn’t bear the shame. Her mother persuaded Pornhub to remove the videos, and Fleites switched schools. But rumors reached the new school, and soon the videos were uploaded again to Pornhub and other websites.

Fleites quarreled with her mother and began cutting herself. Then one day she went to the medicine cabinet and took every antidepressant pill she could find.

Three days later, she woke up in the hospital, frustrated to be still alive. Next she hanged herself in the bathroom; her little sister found her, and medics revived her.

As Fleites spiraled downward, a friend introduced her to meth and opioids, and she became addicted to both. She dropped out of school and became homeless.

At 16, she advertised on Craigslist and began selling naked photos and videos of herself. It was a way to make a bit of money, and maybe also a way to punish herself. She thought, “I’m not worth anything any more because everybody has already seen my body,” she told me.

Those videos also ended up on Pornhub. Fleites would ask that they be removed. They usually would be, she says — but then would be uploaded again. One naked video of her at 14 had 400,000 views, she says, leaving her afraid to apply for fast-food jobs for fear that someone would recognize her.

So today Fleites, 19, off drugs for a year but unemployed and traumatized, is living in her car in Bakersfield, along with three dogs that have proved more loyal and loving than the human species. She dreams of becoming a vet technician but isn’t sure how to get there. “It’s kind of hard to go to school when you’re living in a car with dogs,” she said.

“I was dumb,” she acknowledged, noting that she had never imagined that the videos could be shared online. “It was one small thing that a teenager does, and it’s crazy how it turns into something so much bigger.

“A whole life can be changed because of one little mistake.”


III.

The problem goes far beyond one company. Indeed, a rival of Pornhub, XVideos, which arguably has even fewer scruples, may attract more visitors. Depictions of child abuse also appear on mainstream sites like Twitter, Reddit and Facebook. And Google supports the business models of companies that thrive on child molestation.

Google returns 920 million videos on a search for “young porn.” Top hits include a video of a naked “very young teen” engaging in sex acts on XVideo along with a video on Pornhub whose title is unprintable here.

I asked the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children to compile the number of images, videos and other content related to child sexual exploitation reported to it each year. In 2015, it received reports of 6.5 million videos or other files; in 2017, 20.6 million; and in 2019, 69.2 million.

Facebook removed 12.4 million images related to child exploitation in a three-month period this year. Twitter closed 264,000 accounts in six months last year for engaging in sexual exploitation of children. By contrast, Pornhub notes that the Internet Watch Foundation, an England-based nonprofit that combats child sexual abuse imagery, reported only 118 instances of child sexual abuse imagery on its site over almost three years, seemingly a negligible figure. “Eliminating illegal content is an ongoing battle for every modern content platform, and we are committed to remaining at the forefront,” Pornhub said in its statement.

The Internet Watch Foundation couldn’t explain why its figure for Pornhub is so low. Perhaps it’s because people on Pornhub are inured to the material and unlikely to report it. But if you know what to look for, it’s possible to find hundreds of apparent child sexual abuse videos on Pornhub in 30 minutes. Pornhub has recently offered playlists with names including “less than 18,” “the best collection of young boys” and “under- - age.”

Congress and successive presidents have done almost nothing as this problem has grown. The tech world that made it possible has been mostly passive, in a defensive crouch. But pioneering reporting in 2019 by my Times colleagues has prodded Congress to begin debating competing strategies to address child exploitation.

Concerns about Pornhub are bubbling up. A petition to shut the site down has received 2.1 million signatures. Senator Ben Sasse, a Nebraska Republican, called on the Justice Department to investigate Pornhub. PayPal cut off services for the company, and credit card companies have been asked to do the same. An organization called Traffickinghub, led by an activist named Laila Mickelwait, documents abuses and calls for the site to be shut down. Twenty members of Canada’s Parliament have called on their government to crack down on Pornhub, which is effectively based in Montreal.

“They made money off my pain and suffering,” an 18-year-old woman named Taylor told me. A boyfriend secretly made a video of her performing a sex act when she was 14, and it ended up on Pornhub, the police confirmed. “I went to school the next day and everybody was looking at their phones and me as I walked down the hall,” she added, weeping as she spoke. “They were laughing.”

Taylor said she has twice attempted suicide because of the humiliation and trauma. Like others quoted here, she agreed to tell her story and help document it because she thought it might help other girls avoid suffering as she did.


IV.

Pornhub is owned by Mindgeek, a private pornography conglomerate with more than 100 websites, production companies and brands. Its sites include Redtube, Youporn, XTube, SpankWire, ExtremeTube, Men.com, My Dirty Hobby, Thumbzilla, PornMD, Brazzers and GayTube. There are other major players in porn outside the Mindgeek umbrella, most notably XHamster and XVideos, but Mindgeek is a porn titan. If it operated in another industry, the Justice Department could be discussing an antitrust case against it.

Pornhub and Mindgeek also stand out because of their influence. One study this year by a digital marketing company concluded that Pornhub was the technology company with the third greatest-impact on society in the 21st century, after Facebook and Google but ahead of Microsoft, Apple and Amazon.

Nominally based in Luxembourg for tax reasons, Mindgeek is a private company run from Montreal. It does not disclose who owns it, but it is led by Feras Antoon and David Tassillo, both Canadians, who declined to be interviewed.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau of Canada calls himself a feminist and has been proud of his government’s efforts to empower women worldwide. So a question for Trudeau and all Canadians: Why does Canada host a company that inflicts rape videos on the world?

Mindgeek’s moderators are charged with filtering out videos of children, but its business model profits from sex videos starring young people.

“The goal for a content moderator is to let as much content as possible go through,” a former Mindgeek employee told me. He said he believed that the top executives weren’t evil but were focused above all on maximizing revenue.

While Pornhub would not tell me how many moderators it employs, I interviewed one who said that there are about 80 worldwide who work on Mindgeek sites (by comparison, Facebook told me it has 15,000 moderators). With 1.36 million new hours of video uploaded a year to Pornhub, that means that each moderator would have to review hundreds of hours of content each week.

The moderators fast forward through videos, but it’s often difficult to assess whether a person is 14 or 18, or whether torture is real or fake. Most of the underage content involves teenagers, the moderator I spoke with said, but some comes from spy cams in toilets or changing rooms and shows children only 8 to 12.

“The job in itself is soul-destroying,” the moderator said.

Pornhub appears to be increasingly alarmed about civil or criminal liability. Lawyers are circling, and nine women sued the company in federal court after spy cam videos surfaced on Pornhub. The videos were shot in a locker room at Limestone College in South Carolina and showed women showering and changing clothes.

Executives of Pornhub appear in the past to have assumed that they enjoyed immunity under Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, which protects internet platforms on which members of the public post content. But in 2018 Congress limited Section 230 so that it may not be enough to shield the company, leading Mindgeek to behave better.

It has doubled the number of moderators in the last couple of years, the moderator told me, and this year Pornhub began voluntarily reporting illegal material to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. After previously dragging its feet in removing videos of children and nonconsensual content, Pornhub now is responding more rapidly.

It has also compiled a list of banned content. I obtained a copy of this list, and it purports to bar videos with terms or themes like “rape,” “preteen,” “pedophilia” and “bestiality” (it helpfully clarifies that this “includes eels, fish, octopus, insects”). Diapers are OK “if no scatophilia.” Mutilation depends on context but “cannot depict severing parts of the body.”

So while it is now no longer possible to search on Pornhub in English using terms like “underage” or “rape,” the company hasn’t tried hard to eliminate such videos. A member called “13yoboyteen” is allowed to post videos. A search for “r*pe,” turns up 1,901 videos. “Girl with braces” turns up 1,913 videos and suggests also trying “exxxtra small teens.” A search for “13yo” generates 155,000 videos. To be clear, most aren’t of 13-year-olds, but the fact that they’re promoted with that language seems to reflect an effort to attract pedophiles.

Moreover, some videos seem at odds with the list of banned content. “Runaway Girl Gets Ultimatum, Anal or the Streets” is the title of one Pornhub video. Another user posts videos documenting sex with teenage girls as they weep, protest and cry out in pain.

While Pornhub is becoming more careful about videos of potentially litigious Americans, it remains cavalier about overseas victims. One Indonesian video is titled “Junior High School Girl After Class” and shows what appears to be a young teenager having sex. A Chinese sex video, just taken down, was labeled: “Beautiful High School Girl Is Tricked by Classmates and Taken to the Top of a Building Where She Is Insulted and Raped.”

“They’re making money off the worst moment in my life, off my body,” a Colombian teenager who asked to be called Xela, a nickname, told me. Two American men paid her when she was 16 for a sexual encounter that they filmed and then posted on Pornhub. She was one of several Pornhub survivors who told me they had thought of or attempted suicide.

In the last few days as I was completing this article, two new videos of prepubescent girls being assaulted were posted, along with a sex video of a 15-year-old girl who was suicidal after it went online. I don’t see how good-faith moderators could approve any of these videos.


V.

“It’s always going to be online,” Nicole, a British woman who has had naked videos of herself posted and reposted on Pornhub, told me. “That’s my big fear of having kids, them seeing this.”

That’s a recurring theme among survivors: An assault eventually ends, but Pornhub renders the suffering interminable.

Naked videos of Nicole at 15 were posted on Pornhub. Now 19, she has been trying for two years to get them removed.

“Why do videos of me from when I was 15 years old and blackmailed, which is child porn, continuously [get] uploaded?” Nicole protested plaintively to Pornhub last year, in a message. “You really need a better system. … I tried to kill myself multiple times after finding myself reuploaded on your website.”

Nicole’s lawyer, Dani Pinter, says there are still at least three naked videos of Nicole at age 15 or 16 on Pornhub that they are trying to get removed.

“It’s never going to end,” Nicole said. “They’re getting so much money from our trauma.”

Pornhub has introduced software that supposedly can “fingerprint” rape videos and prevent them from being uploaded again. But Vice showed how this technology is easily circumvented on Pornhub.

One Pornhub scandal involved the Girls Do Porn production company, which recruited young women for clothed modeling gigs and then pushed them to perform in sex videos, claiming that the videos would be sold only as DVDs in other countries and would never go online. Reassured that no one would ever know, some of the women agreed — and then were shattered when the footage was aggressively marketed on Pornhub.

Girls Do Porn was prosecuted for sex trafficking and shut down. But those videos continue to surface and resurface on Pornhub; last time I checked, videos of six victims of Girls Do Porn were on Pornhub, which continues to profit from them.

One of the Girls Do Porn women I saw on Pornhub is now dead. She was murdered at 20, allegedly by an angry ex-boyfriend who is about to go on trial. I’m not disclosing her name because she should be remembered as a vibrant college athlete, and not for a sex video that represented her most mortifying moment.


VI.

So what’s the solution?

I had expected the survivors to want to shut down Pornhub and send its executives to prison. Some did, but others were more nuanced. Lydia, now 20, was trafficked as a child and had many rape videos posted on the site. “My stomach hurts all the time” from the tension, she told me, but she doesn’t want to come across as hostile to porn itself.

“I don’t want people to hear ‘No porn!’” Lydia told me. “It’s more like, ‘Stop hurting kids.’”

Susan Padron told me that she had assumed that pornography was consensual, until a boyfriend filmed her in a sex act when she was 15 and posted it on Pornhub. She has struggled since and believes that only people who have confirmed their identities should be allowed to post videos.

Jessica Shumway, who was trafficked and had a customer post a sex video on Pornhub, agrees: “They need to figure out who’s underage in the videos and that there’s consent from everybody in it.”

I asked Leo, 18, who had videos of himself posted on Pornhub when he was 14, what he suggested.

“That’s tough,” he said. “My solution would be to leave porn to professional production companies,” because they require proof of age and consent.

Right now, those companies can’t compete with mostly free sites like Pornhub and XVideos.

“Pornhub has already destroyed the business model for pay sites,” said Stoya, an adult film actress and writer. She, too, thinks all platforms — from YouTube to Pornhub — should require proof of consent to upload videos of private individuals.

Columnists are supposed to offer answers, but I struggle with solutions. If Pornhub curated videos more rigorously, the most offensive material might just move to the dark web or to websites in less regulated countries. Yet at least they would then not be normalized on a mainstream site.

More pressure and less impunity would help. We’re already seeing that limiting Section 230 immunity leads to better self-policing.

And call me a prude, but I don’t see why search engines, banks or credit card companies should bolster a company that monetizes sexual assaults on children or unconscious women. If PayPal can suspend cooperation with Pornhub, so can American Express, Mastercard and Visa.

I don’t see any neat solution. But aside from limiting immunity so that companies are incentivized to behave better, here are three steps that would help: 1.) Allow only verified users to post videos. 2.) Prohibit downloads. 3.) Increase moderation.

These measures wouldn’t kill porn or much bother consumers of it; YouTube thrives without downloads. Siri Dahl, a prominent porn star who does business with Pornhub, told me that my three proposals are “insanely reasonable.”

The world has often been oblivious to child sexual abuse, from the Catholic Church to the Boy Scouts. Too late, we prosecute individuals like Jeffrey Epstein or R. Kelly. But we should also stand up to corporations that systematically exploit children. With Pornhub, we have Jeffrey Epstein times 1,000.

If you are having thoughts of suicide, call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-8255 (TALK). You can find a list of additional resources at SpeakingOfSuicide.com/resources.
Marco Freeman,
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Re: The Children of Pornhub (NYtimes.com)

Nový příspěvek od Marco Freeman »

Nicholas Kristof píše:After a 15-year-old girl went missing in Florida, her mother found her on Pornhub — in 58 sex videos. Sexual assaults on a 14-year-old California girl were posted on Pornhub and were reported to the authorities not by the company but by a classmate who saw the videos. In each case, offenders were arrested for the assaults, but Pornhub escaped responsibility for sharing the videos and profiting from them. (…) He had shared the videos with other boys, and someone posted them on Pornhub. (…) “They made money off my pain and suffering,” an 18-year-old woman named Taylor told me. A boyfriend secretly made a video of her performing a sex act when she was 14, and it ended up on Pornhub, the police confirmed. (…) They’re making money off the worst moment in my life, off my body,” a Colombian teenager who asked to be called Xela, a nickname, told me. Two American men paid her when she was 16 for a sexual encounter that they filmed and then posted on Pornhub. (…) Naked videos of Nicole at 15 were posted on Pornhub. Now 19, she has been trying for two years to get them removed. (…) I asked Leo, 18, who had videos of himself posted on Pornhub when he was 14 (…)
These stories are really, really sad. But I don’t think that the major problem is Pornhub or any other porn site. The problem is that we need to educate children, that it not safe to post or send photos with them naked to anybody. I would like to hear these stories more, for example on some school projects about “how it can end, if…”, because many children don’t actually understand the potential danger they are putting themselves into, when they send inappropriate photo of themselves.

In Czech Republic I know about one YouTube video called “Na hory” (“To the mountains”), which shows the story of one young boy, who is blackmailed to send more and more inappropriate photos to his blackmailer. And the end of this video is really sad, too. It shows the reality. Unfortunately, there are no English subtitles.


Many children think that they can trust to their partner, but these materials will stay on their devices even though they break up. And some of them would be interested in sharing these photos and videos for many reasons – revenge, anger, show off their partner etc. It is necessary to teach the children that even though they NOW trust they partner it is still not safe to post or send these photos anywhere and to anyone.

The second thing is that PornHub or any other site can’t help that much. Why? When you once post something to the internet, it stays there forever. Somebody can download it and upload it to some other place, so even if the PornHub deletes something, somebody can upload it again somewhere.

Nicholas Kristof píše:Unlike YouTube, Pornhub allows these videos to be downloaded directly from its website. So even if a rape video is removed at the request of the authorities, it may already be too late: The video lives on as it is shared with others or uploaded again and again.
Well, I think there are many ways to download video from any site, even YouTube. Maybe it is not that direct, but if someone is really interested in downloading something, they will find the way to do it. So, removing “download button” from PornHub solves literally nothing, because there will always be the way to download it.

Nicholas Kristof píše:Because it’s impossible to be sure whether a youth in a video is 14 or 18, neither Pornhub nor anyone else has a clear idea of how much content is illegal.
Exactly. I think it is kind of impossible to recognize if the person in the video is 18 years old or 17 years old. And the difference between these two people is huge – porn with 18-year-olds is completely legal (in our country), but porn with 17-year-olds is considered child porn. How can normal person without any identification of these people know, how old is the person in the video? And when exactly is the difference between minor and adult person visible? I know many 14-year-olds, who looks like they can be 18 years old. So, if I see someone like them in porn video, I wouldn’t even think about their age, because subconsciously I would think they are at least 18 years old.

And many people believe that it is actually impossible to find child porn on legal porn sites, so if they see some really young-looking person in the porn video, they usually rely on the porn site that these actors are at least 18 years old, just looking younger, so they don’t think about it much.

That’s why I don’t think we can blame the people who saw the videos, because if the children didn’t really look like a “definitely underage person”, they basically couldn’t know. And with the porn site it is kind of the same.

The only solution to prevent these situations would be mandatory identifications of all people in the porn video – for example all participants would have to scan their IDs so some employee of the porn site can confirm their age. But… is this solution realistic?

Imagine how many employees would porn site need, if every single uploaded video needed to be checked manually. And how many people would actually like that they have to send to the porn site their identities for this age confirmation? How many of these “amateurs” do like to be anonymous? Can we force them to reveal themselves to the porn site staff?

I’m not saying that I am happy with these situations, which definitely happens. But I don’t think we can blame the people who watched it or the site. The number of videos posted on the porn sites is huge. You don’t have to prove your age, so porn sites don’t have any chance to confirms actors’ ages. And some law about need of age confirmation is probably not very realistic.

So, who we can blame?

Firstly, the person who uploaded it/resend it first. Because they humiliated the victim, they are responsible for uploading it anywhere.

Secondly, the parents of the victim or/and the victim herself. If the victim didn’t make any of these videos or photos, there would be not chance to upload it anywhere. But I understand that children are naïve and their parents can’t see everything their kid does on the internet. But I cannot say there is no mistake on their side.

(Obviously I was talking about the situation, when victims take photos or videos of them being naked and then they send it to their partners or anybody else. If the victim was photographed without their permission or without their knowledge of this, of course, the blame lies only on the abuser.)

Thirdly, the society, the school and so on. As I said, we need to talk to kids about this, we need to educate them about this topic. If we don’t educate children about it, there will be more and more cases.

We can discus the blame of people who reupload it. If they knew about their age and the situation, they are definitely guilty. But what if they didn’t know and they just reuploaded a video they liked, not knowing the age of the actress?

Nicholas Kristof píše:She says she was adopted in the United States from China and then trafficked by her adoptive family and forced to appear in pornographic videos beginning when she was 9. Some videos of her being abused ended up on Pornhub and regularly reappear there, she said.
Another very, very sad story. And yes, a child who is 9 years old can be definitely recognised as a child. So, when the porn site finds out, then they can promptly delete it. But as I said, the number of uploaded videos is huge. So, sometimes it takes some time before someone reports it. And again, I don’t think we can blame porn site for this. They definitely can remove illegal content, but they can do it only when they know about it. They aren’t responsible for horrible people, who reupload the videos of the victim. The people are responsible for it. People who hurt the victim, people who recorded it, people who reupload it. They are guilty.

Nicholas Kristof píše:Yet there’s another side of the company: Its site is infested with rape videos. It monetizes (…) revenge pornography, spy cam videos of women showering, racist and misogynist content, and footage of women being asphyxiated in plastic bags.
And finally – yes, I consider this very bad. I think there is a mistake on porn site side. Why? Because they are fighting against child porn on their site (at least the child porn they can spot), but there are many videos of adult people, who were without their permission and knowledge recorded in solarium, in shower, on Omegle site and so on. This is unacceptable and the porn sites need to do something about it as soon as possible.
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Re: The Children of Pornhub (NYTimes.com, Nicholas Kristof)

Nový příspěvek od podivin »

IMHO the problem begins somewhere else. The children want to be "liked" by others. Parents are busy with surfing and posting on social networks, the children see only successful celebrity having milions followers and likes and want some love too. And for this love they make everything even naked photos and videos.

Hidden capturing cannot be simply prevented, of course. But it should be hard punished. We have law to protect people agains unwanted capturing, so there should be hard punishment for someone taking video or images (a) without consent (currently in law), (b) with intimate material (harder punishment), (c) sharing it with others (even harder punishment), (d) doing this with children (already in law but should be harder punishment). And the punishment has to be applied even on the school mates sharing the material on school. Not the victim should be forced change the school, but the criminal (and all other abuser) should be removed from the victim's life.

Next step is moderation on the porn websites. Yes, there is too much material to be verified by the company. But the company makes much money from this material, so they have to hire many people to check all uploaded material. Maybe some verified accounts (with ID or non-anonymous credit card or with good reputation) could upload without moderation. Maybe the verified accounts could works as moderators too and new videos from non-verified accounts will be published as soon as some company moderator or some number of verified accounts confirms it as good. There are possible solutions, but of course, it needs energy and money and companies want make huge money and not to pay anything.

For the video with unclear content (torture, "under 18" or "child", hidden cam) the uploader had to provide some evidence, that the video is not real, but only play and the actors are older. Maybe some ID or credit card of actor or maybe some part of video, where the actor comment her video and give consent with publishing on porn web. Without this consent the uploader would be guilty and if approved by company, the company would be guilty, if they cannot provide evidence. If think, the evidence would be stored only by company, not freely available, so none could identify actress exactly.
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Re: The Children of Pornhub (NYTimes.com, Nicholas Kristof)

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podivin píše: pátek 25. 12. 2020, 10:52:37And the punishment has to be applied even on the school mates sharing the material on school.
The school mates are usually kids, too. It is well-known that children are very often capable of such a hard bullying. The best prevention is education, again. Not just potential victims should be informed about the risk of sending inappropriate photos, the potential “resenders” should be informed about how bad is resending these photos and how it can end. They need to hear the stories from this article, because when this happens, they don’t think about how bad this can end. They need to know the potential consequences, that it can force someone to commit suicide. I think the knowledge of someone killing themselves because of them is the biggest and the saddest punishment, which can happen. How can they live with this knowledge? How hard it must be – knowing you forced someone to kill themselves, even though you were just a “stupid kid” yourself?

I think that the best prevention of bullying with inappropriate photos is preventing any bullying at all. We need teachers, who care not just about teaching, but about the students as well. We need teachers, who will watch situations in the classroom, who will react promptly to end any behaviour, which can lead to bullying. It is well-known that the better the relationships between students themselves and between students and teachers, the lower the risk of bullying. I find it really sad that too much often the teachers care just about the teaching of their subjects and they don’t care about teaching children even more important things – for example what bullying is, how bad it is and to what bullying can lead.

Many children don’t understand potential consequences, because nobody discussed it with them. They just think it is funny, they can ventilate their inner anger to somebody, they think it is acceptable to do it to somebody as a revenge. And these are the hallmarks of a not very well-run collective in the classroom and of a not very good upbringing in the family. This is where the society should start to prevent children from bullying others.

podivin píše: pátek 25. 12. 2020, 10:52:37Not the victim should be forced change the school, but the criminal (and all other abuser) should be removed from the victim's life.
I think the leaving of the abuser(s) can’t help to the victim that much. Even if all of the abusers are kicked out from the school, other kids will spread the information, other kids will talk about what the victim did behind her back. I think that more important is to work with all participants – with victim herself, with abusers and with other classmates. It would lead to better mood in collective than just kicking the “bad guys” out and just pretending nothing had happened.

podivin píše: pátek 25. 12. 2020, 10:52:37But the company makes much money from this material, so they have to hire many people to check all uploaded material.
You still think it is possible? “In 2019 there was a record amount of video uploads, over 6.83 million new videos were uploaded to Pornhub.” (Source: https://www.pornhub.com/insights/2019-year-in-review#2019) This means 18.712 new videos every day, 779 new videos every hour and 13 new videos every single minute.

And to be honest… There are many porn sites which do much less than Pornhub. There are sites, which don’t have the blacklist of the words like “rape”, “abuse”, “forcing” and other, where you can find much worse things then on Pornhub. And I am talking just about sites which are on clearnet. We all know that somewhere else are much, much worse things.

I still think that this pointing on Pornhub is a bit useless, it will not change anything in a global perspective. As I said, the only solution is to work with children, that can lead to the success – to times, when less and less children are in the end victims of (sexual) cyber-bullying.
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Re: The Children of Pornhub (NYTimes.com, Nicholas Kristof)

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If someone knows that video contains illegal content, they can simply mark it/contact porntube and porntube as well as most others sites will remove it. It works wery well for long time. No one want to risk police problems with real child pornography or real raping.
Many actress looks younger then they are others looks older. And marking 17yo girl as "child" is just wrong. If someone tells in media magic words "child porn" most people imagine small prepubescent childs!
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Re: The Children of Pornhub (NYTimes.com, Nicholas Kristof)

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Jednorozec píše: pátek 25. 12. 2020, 16:10:38If someone knows that video contains illegal content, they can simply mark it/contact porntube and porntube as well as most others sites will remove it. It works wery well for long time. No one want to risk police problems with real child pornography or real raping.
As I said in my previous response, I think many people who see a video with actress who look younger than 18 years old (or who see some video, which contains real looking rape) just depend on believing that such a thing is impossible. They don’t realize it is possible to find child porn (or real rape porn) on a legal website, so I think many of them don’t report it. (Of course, I am talking about situation, when the actress in the video looks younger, but is not easily recognizable as a child. If the child is for example 9 years old, it is obvious it’s a kid, so in this case we can’t talk about viewers not realizing what they are looking at.)

Another aspect can be that people who see it are afraid of reporting it, because they don’t want anybody to know they watched it.

And definitely there are even people, who recognize child porn, but who liked it, so they don’t want to lose their “favourite video”, so they don’t report it.

There can be many reasons why someone decides to not report obvious (or not that much obvious) illegal content. But in the end usually there is somebody who reports it and then the porn site can remove it promptly.

Jednorozec píše: pátek 25. 12. 2020, 16:10:38And marking 17yo girl as "child" is just wrong. If someone tells in media magic words "child porn" most people imagine small prepubescent childs!
In our law the child is considered as a person younger than 18 years of age, so any pornography which contains people U18 is illegal and considered as a child porn. The child porn isn’t just porn with easily recognizable children (for example prepubescent kids), but also a porn with teenagers U18, no matter how old they look. The video can seem legal and, in the end, not be legal at all (the 14, 15, 16 and 17-year-olds definitely can look like 18-years-olds, but that doesn’t mean the porn with them is legal).

But don’t forget that our law in Czech Republic considers even pornography with adult people who are older than 18 years of age but who look like minors as a child pornography. See § 192 in our Criminal Code.
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Re: The Children of Pornhub (NYTimes.com, Nicholas Kristof)

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Marco Freeman píše: pátek 25. 12. 2020, 15:48:50
podivin píše: pátek 25. 12. 2020, 10:52:37And the punishment has to be applied even on the school mates sharing the material on school.
The school mates are usually kids, too. The best prevention is education, again. ... the potential “resenders” should be informed about how bad is resending these photos and how it can end. They need to hear the stories from this article, ... that it can force someone to commit suicide. I think the knowledge of someone killing themselves because of them is the biggest and the saddest punishment, which can happen. How can they live with this knowledge? How hard it must be – knowing you forced someone to kill themselves, even though you were just a “stupid kid” yourself?
You are right, that would be great of course, if the children would understand, what they are doing. So yes, the first step would be to teach children. Do you think, they really still don't know, that it's bad? There are already many cases of children suicide, because of bullying. IMHO the children should already know themselfs, that it's not nice, but maybe they want to humiliate their schoolmates or even revenge to more successfull schoolmates.

Of course the punishment should be as last action. But if the attackers do not stop, then they should be punished by changing the place, not the victim.
Marco Freeman píše: pátek 25. 12. 2020, 15:48:50I think that the best prevention of bullying with inappropriate photos is preventing any bullying at all. We need teachers, who care not just about teaching, but about the students as well. We need teachers, who will watch situations in the classroom, who will react promptly to end any behaviour, which can lead to bullying.
Yes, but very often the children learn some kind of bullying from their parents. And these children are even bullying the teachers. It's really hard.
Marco Freeman píše: pátek 25. 12. 2020, 15:48:50Many children don’t understand potential consequences, because nobody discussed it with them. They just think it is funny,
And I'm afraid, if someone will tell them, it's not funny and the victim can commit suicide, they can still think "it's not my case, I'm just doing jokes and the victim takes it as fun too". In this case, if their don't understand it or don't want to stop, they should be punished by removing them from that society, leaving victim with their friends, who are not bullying.
Marco Freeman píše: pátek 25. 12. 2020, 15:48:50
podivin píše: pátek 25. 12. 2020, 10:52:37Not the victim should be forced change the school, but the criminal (and all other abuser) should be removed from the victim's life.
I think the leaving of the abuser(s) can’t help to the victim that much. Even if all of the abusers are kicked out from the school, other kids will spread the information, other kids will talk about what the victim did behind her back. I think that more important is to work with all participants – with victim herself, with abusers and with other classmates. It would lead to better mood in collective than just kicking the “bad guys” out and just pretending nothing had happened.
The punishment and removing attackers from community should be as last resort. IMHO there are some levels of attackers. First (original) level are really attackers, who does it as some kind revenge or humiliation. Second level are just children who are afraid of getting negative attention from attackers if they do not support them and probably get the new target of the attackers. If the first level attackers will be removed, I believe, the second level attackers would at least stop bullying and maybe even support and/or apologize to victims.
Marco Freeman píše: pátek 25. 12. 2020, 15:48:50
podivin píše: pátek 25. 12. 2020, 10:52:37But the company makes much money from this material, so they have to hire many people to check all uploaded material.
You still think it is possible? “In 2019 there was a record amount of video uploads, over 6.83 million new videos were uploaded to Pornhub.” (Source: https://www.pornhub.com/insights/2019-year-in-review#2019) This means 18.712 new videos every day, 779 new videos every hour and 13 new videos every single minute.
This is not my problem. The company should solve it. OK, 15 minutes to check one video is enough? I.e. 13 x 15 = 195 persons to check these 13 videos in 15 minutes. And I think, from that money, they can even employ 1950 persons to check these videos. BUT! Verified accounts could upload videos without checking, only videos from unknown accounts had to be checked. And they don't need to be checked instantly. If someone want to get his video published without checking, he had to verify his account (credit card owner or ID). Or the video could be checked by some number of other verified accounts. There are possibilities, how to eliminate unwanted videos. But there should be force from law.
Marco Freeman píše: pátek 25. 12. 2020, 15:48:50And to be honest… There are many porn sites which do much less than Pornhub. There are sites, which don’t have the blacklist of the words like “rape”, “abuse”, “forcing” and other, where you can find much worse things then on Pornhub. And I am talking just about sites which are on clearnet. We all know that somewhere else are much, much worse things.
Yes, I know. Every site had to do it. But the law had to enforce it. And if the pornhub and other sites want to be serious, then they should implement these actions. IMHO the sites on clearnet are most dangerous. I don't think the children are using darknet porn sites and there is even worse content, so naked schoolmates compared to other darknet content are smaller problem. But now, we are talking about clearnet site and content which can be found even with google search.
Marco Freeman píše: pátek 25. 12. 2020, 15:48:50I still think that this pointing on Pornhub is a bit useless, it will not change anything in a global perspective.
Of course, the pornhub is not the only. Other porn sites are same and have to be changed too. In this case pornhub has been selected as victim. I hope, they will force other porn site to delete inappropriate videos too.
Marco Freeman píše: pátek 25. 12. 2020, 15:48:50As I said, the only solution is to work with children, that can lead to the success – to times, when less and less children are in the end victims of (sexual) cyber-bullying.
I agree, but I don't believe, all children can be changed. And the article is not only about bullying the children. There are hidden cam videos, there are woman humiliation videos, rape videos etc. All these should be stopped.

So yes, in the first step to work with children to eliminate children bullying. As seconds to punish the attackers.

But there must be law to enforce porn sites to check the videos to eliminate inappropriate videos too.
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Re: The Children of Pornhub (NYTimes.com, Nicholas Kristof)

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podivin píše: sobota 26. 12. 2020, 2:36:43Do you think, they really still don't know, that it's bad? There are already many cases of children suicide, because of bullying. IMHO the children should already know themselfs, that it's not nice, but maybe they want to humiliate their schoolmates or even revenge to more successfull schoolmates.
Of course, many of them still don’t know. They can watch TV series with this topic, they can hear few information from News, but they don’t understand the real meaning until someone really discuss it with them, literally face-to-face. (And even after that some of them don't understand.) The first thing about bullying is to actually come up with definition. What even is bullying? Did you try to ask some kid, what bullying was? Where are the boundaries of it? What did they answer?

Of course, all children can answer, that physical abusing is bad, for example hitting face. But what about PE lessons? If children play a game with ball and they are supposed to throw it and hit some other classmate (for example in a game called “vybíjená”) and few of them decide to hit only one person and laugh at him, is it bullying? When the game literally is about this? Because I experienced it myself, when I was younger. Literally half of the class decided to hit me with ball repeatedly. And because they cooperated as a team and every hit gained points, they actually ended up winning the game. There was no rule you can’t hit only one person, so why not.

Did the teacher see it as a bullying? No. Did the kids who done that see it as a bullying? Of course not. Did other classmates see it as a bullying? No. It was just a strategy to win to all of them. Did I see it as a bullying? Well, I was trapped between them without any help, they laughed at me and were hitting me kind of hard with the ball. Of course, I saw it as a bullying. And I felt really bad the rest of the day.

The boundaries between what is bullying and what isn’t can be really tricky. What is a funny bearable joke to one person can be extremely hurtful to someone else. I know there were people, who wouldn’t mind these situations, who wouldn’t care. Who were much stronger than me at the time. And if someone did it to them, they would have the strength to laugh it off.

This story is something irrelevant compared to the article. I’m just saying that – yes, there are many people (not just children, but even adult people), who can’t recognize what is a bullying and what is not. And why is that so much important? Because if some of my teachers used their head and tried to do something for example about the “funny game with a ball”, they could prevent what happened next. But they were blindfolded. And as we know, the bullying starts easily and innocently. And if we don’t stop it, it can grow into something terrible.

I’m saying all of this as an insight into how hard can be understanding of what the bullying is. Because until you understand what bullying is, you cannot prevent it, you cannot recognize it, you cannot think about it like a mistake.

(Bullying is one of my “favourite” themes, as I am interested in it a lot, so I can talk about it literally for hours and I find my English a bit limiting. If I was writing in Czech, my responses would be longer. :))

So, my short answer to your question “Do you think, they really still don't know, that it's bad?” is: I don’t think many of them thought about their actions as a bullying, I think many of them do it because of their inner anger and inner frustration they got somewhere else, I think many of them can do it impulsively and then regret it. I think there are many reasons why a child decides to bully somebody, even with some of the worst ways – online, where everybody see. And I think that child deciding to bully someone is a sign of their surroundings being unhealthy.

So still. Work with children -> prevent bullying.

By the way, I know about six or seven girls, who were +- my age, when they sent some inappropriate photos to some guys. After a few days, everyone in the school had them in their mobile phones, on their Messengers and so on. I was like 15 or 16 years old teenager at the time and I happened to saw these girls naked even though I wasn’t interested in it at all. And I know that boys, who were interested in it saw much, much more. One of my classmates had a whole database of these photos of girls (not just from our school, but even from some girls that did not study at our school) and he was literally so proud of the fact that everybody knew that about him. Today I would most likely do something about it. In that time I didn’t know what would be better for the girls involved and how could I do something about that. Luckily, I don’t have any information about them killing themselves or anything like that. But I am sure they weren’t happy about these photos being so public after sending it to their… probably boyfriend? Who knows. But I can tell one: The guys who were collecting these pictures and showing/sending it to their buddies didn't think about it as a bullying at all. Of course they knew it isn't a good thing, but they didn't think about it as it was something horrible.

podivin píše: sobota 26. 12. 2020, 2:36:43And these children are even bullying the teachers. It's really hard.
Yeah. If you don’t stop the bullying at the beginning, it is much harder to work with the unhealthy collective. And I can say one thing – children can be really cruel. And this I’m not saying just as an ex-victim of bullying at primary school, but even as a person, who heard and knew about some teachers, who failed to lead the class and to prevent bullying so bad that they don’t want to work with kids anymore. Being a teacher is a hard work with such a high responsibility not just for you but sometimes even for other lives.

And I’m not going to talk about Pornhub or any other site’s problems anymore. (But I am still open to a discussion about bullying.) Not that I changed my opinion (and BTW, I agree with you that spy cams and other things like that are unacceptable, I wrote it in my previous responses), but I don’t think I can bring anything new to this topic. And in the end – I am not an owner of any porn site (and I guess I will never be), so I don’t have to sit here and defend them. I just wanted to point out that the article is pointing on porn sites (which are still the secondary problem) and not on the primary problem (that the videos of children are created at all and how we can prevent it).
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